Text of Online Interview for China's Diplomacy in the New Era Organization: 论新时代社会主义现代化的特征 网络访谈文字摘要，美国东部时间周二（On the Character of Socialist Modernization in the New Era)

 

On 28 August 2024 I was interviewed by Li Ying [丽颖] for China's Diplomacy in the New Era Organization.

8月28日，即将来华参加明德战略对话（2024）的美国宾夕法尼亚州立大学法学与国际事务学院教授白轲接受@新时代中国外交思想库 专访时表示，中国式现代化不是一成不变的，而是不断与时俱进。如今，中国式现代化不仅聚焦经济领域，还致力于解决分配不均问题、推动社会主义文化发展和社会进步。#中国式现代化 #明德战略对话2024

On August 28, Bai Ke [(白 轲) Larry Catá Backer], a professor at the School of Law and International Affairs at Pennsylvania State University in the United States, who is about to come to China to participate in the Centennial Strategic Dialogue (2024), said in an exclusive interview with the @新ERA中国 diplomatic think tank that Chinese-style modernization is not set in stone; it continuously advances with the times. Today, Chinese-style modernization not only focuses on the economic field, but is also committed to solving the problem of uneven distribution and promoting the development of socialist culture and social progress. #中文字幕国产 strategic dialogue 2024

A written text substantially reflecting the interview follows below (in English and in my crude Chinese translation). 

 

 

Larry Catá Backer (白 轲)

On the Character of Socialist Modernization in the New Era

Text summary of online interview, 10 pm EST on Tuesday (Aug 27)

For China-Diplomacy Org (http://chinadiplomacy.org.cn) .

 

1. How long has it been since your last visit to China?

I was last in China in late November 2019. I had been delivering lectures for graduate students at East China University of Political Science and Law in Shanghai and working with colleagues on issues of smart cities and social credit systems.

 

2. What are your expectations for the Mingde Strategic Dialogue?

First I would like to thank Wang Wen and Renmin University for organizing the event. The Mingde Strategic Dialogue provides an excellent opportunity for people to learn from one another and in that way to advance mutual understanding. That is especially important given the central significance of modernization and productivity as a general principle in an age driven by new technologies and new ways of understanding and extending productivity.

 

3. What China-related topics have caught your attention lately, and why?

The world has become a very busy place lately so there is much activity competing for attention.  I can name two developments that have caught my attention—both reflect the drive toward innovation at the heart of new quality development expressed in the 3^rd Plenum Resolution.  The first are issues around technology-based regulations and operations.  This includes social credit systems, but also smart cities and big data tech based production. The second are issues related to the comprehensiveness of the concepts of modernization and productive forces.  The movement from the passing era of Reform and Opening Up now appears to be decisive and new era approaches are worth studying closely .

 

4. Can you preview the main points of your upcoming remarks at this event?

I will be focusing on the importance of Chinese socialist modernization in a global context.  I will suggest that the development of concepts of socialist modernization, and especially the refinement of high or new quality development , has a substantial impact on international efforts to develop global concepts on development and sustainability.  And it is essential for global discussions about big data tech and generative and predictive AI. At the same time it is important for the largest states to begin to develop common ground through which they can effectively manage their relations while furthering their own political economic models and their theories of collective organization.

 

5. How would you define Chinese modernization?

This is not a simple question. Reduced to its essence, and from an outsider’s perspective, Chinese modernization I think has several key characteristics that distinguish it from modernization elsewhere.

 

First, it is Chinese. This is driven by a presumption that national characteristics matter when transposing  theoretical principles into the concrete realities of a cultural-political community. Modernization may be universal; its manifestation is inevitably local.   

 

Second, it is socialist. That requires a very specific approach to understanding the relationship of national sources of productive wealth (human and other resources) with state policy. When combined with the first principle, one speaks about socialism with national characteristics.  

 

Third,  it is premised on the core role of the  productivity of national forces. The principle of productive forces has its roots in classical Marxism referring to the combination of human productivity with the means of production. In Chinese socialism the notion of the development of productive forces became a central element of socialist modernization with Chinese characteristics initially in the period of Reform and Opening Up. In the New Era the focus is on high quality development driven by innovation.  

 

Fourth,  it is premised on an understanding that productive forces must be applied to a particular set of tasks.  In this case it is to move the notion forward along the socialist path at the end of which, ideally, is the realization of a communist society. To that end, of course, the development and deployment of productive forces is very broad in scope and changes to suit the times.

 

Fifth, modernization is dynamic.  Modernization must change with the times and build on the successes as well as learn from the challenges of the past.  During the period of Reform and Opening Up the focus was on economic productivity. In the current new era the focus is on uneven distribution of production and the development of socialist cultural and social forces as well as economic ones.

 

Sixth,  modernization is a comprehensive concept in China’s current historical era.   Because Chinese Marxism is dynamic and attempts to be in accord with the times, it has developed the original 19^th Century notion of productive forces from one that centered on economic production to one that includes the comprehensive development of the nation and of Chin’s productive role in the world.

 

6. In your opinion, how might Chinese modernization impact the world?

Chinese modernization has the potential for great impact in the world.  Let me break that down into several parts. 

 

The first is the effect of Chinese modernization on its most intimate foreign relations.  Chinse style modernization, adapted to national context, may have a potential to shape the way that China’s Belt & Road Initiative partners  engage in their own national modernization movements. Coordination with the Chinese model would create productive synergies.

 

The second is the effect of Chinese modernization on its trading competitors. The interface between Chinese style modernization and competitor bloc is becoming more challenging. Part of this is the product of substantial  theoretical differences. Part of it is grounded in the incompatibility of accountability systems, with U.S. sanctions programs and the new European Sustainability Due Diligence Directive as good examples.

 

And the third is the effect of Chinese modernization on the shaping of international trade and development.  That will produce a dialog between the  traditional approaches of  developed liberal democratic States, the Chinese Model, and the emerging development Model of post-colonial States that are finding their own voice within international forums. Much of this dialog is already evident within the United Nations and the World Trade Organization.   

 

 

Larry Catá Backer (白轲)

论新时代社会主义现代化的特征 网络访谈文字摘要，美国东部时间周二（8月27日）晚上10点 来自中国外交网（http://chinadiplomacy.org.cn）。

 

1. 您上次访问中国是多久前？

我上次来中国是在 2019 年 11 月下旬。我当时在上海华东政法大学为研究生授课，并与同事们就智慧城市和社会信用体系问题展开合作。

 

2. 您对明德战略对话有何期待？

首先，我要感谢王文和人民大学组织这次活动。明德战略对话为人们相互学习并以此增进相互理解提供了绝佳的机会。这一点尤其重要，因为在一个由新技术和理解和扩展生产力的新方式驱动的时代，现代化和生产力作为一项普遍原则具有核心意义。

 

3. 最近哪些与中国有关的话题引起了您的关注，为什么？

最近，世界变得非常繁忙，因此有很多活动在争夺注意力。我可以说出两个引起我注意的发展——它们都反映了三中全会决议中提出的新质量发展的核心——创新驱动力。第一个是围绕基于技术的法规和运营的问题。这包括社会信用体系，也包括智慧城市和基于大数据技术的生产。第二个是与现代化和生产力概念的全面性有关的问题。改革开放时代的变化现在看来是决定性的，新时代的方法值得仔细研究。

 

4. 您能否预览一下您即将在本次活动上发表的讲话的要点？

我将重点讨论中国社会主义现代化在全球背景下的重要性。我认为，社会主义现代化概念的发展，特别是高质量或新质量发展的完善，对国际社会发展全球发展和可持续性概念的努力有着重大影响。这对于有关大数据技术以及生成和预测人工智能的全球讨论至关重要。与此同时，对于最大的国家来说，开始发展共同点也很重要，通过共同点，它们可以有效地管理彼此之间的关系，同时进一步发展自己的政治经济模式和集体组织理论。

 

5. 您如何定义中国的现代化？

这不是一个简单的问题。归根结底，从局外人的角度来看，我认为中国的现代化有几个关键特征，使其有别于其他地方的现代化。

 

首先，它是中国的。这是由这样一种假设驱动的：在将理论原则转化为文化政治共同体的具体现实时，民族特征很重要。现代化可能是普遍的，但它的表现形式必然是地方性的。

 

第二，它是社会主义的。这需要一种非常具体的方法来理解国家生产财富来源（人力和其他资源）与国家政策的关系。当与第一原则相结合时，人们谈论的是具有民族特色的社会主义。

 

第三，它以国家力量生产力的核心作用为前提。生产力原则源于古典马克思主义，指的是人类生产力与生产资料的结合。在中国社会主义中，生产力发展的概念最初是在改革开放时期成为中国特色社会主义现代化的核心要素。在新时代，重点是创新驱动的高质量发展。

 

第四，它的前提是认识到生产力必须应用于一组特定的任务。在这种情况下，它是沿着社会主义道路推进这一概念，理想情况下，这条道路的终点是实现共产主义社会。当然，为此，生产力的发展和部署范围非常广泛，并随着时代的变化而变化。

 

第五，现代化是动态的。现代化必须与时俱进，在成功的基础上再接再厉，并从过去的挑战中吸取教训。改革开放时期的重点是经济生产力。在当前的新时代，重点是生产分配不均以及社会主义文化和社会力量以及经济力量的发展。

 

第六，现代化是中国当前历史时代的一个综合概念。由于中国马克思主义具有活力并且力求与时俱进，它把19世纪最初的生产力概念从以经济生产为中心的概念发展为包括民族的全面发展和中国在世界上的生产作用的概念。

 

6. 您认为中国现代化将如何影响世界？

中国现代化有可能对世界产生巨大影响。让我将其分为几个部分。

 

第一部分是中国现代化对其最亲密的外交关系的影响。适应国情的中国式现代化可能影响中国一带一路合作伙伴参与本国现代化运动的方式。与中国模式的协调将产生富有成效的协同效应。

 

第二部分是中国现代化对其贸易竞争对手的影响。中国式现代化与竞争对手集团之间的对接正变得越来越具有挑战性。部分原因是理论差异很大。部分原因是问责制度不兼容，美国的制裁计划和新的欧洲可持续性尽职调查指令就是很好的例子。

 

第三部分是中国现代化对国际贸易和发展的塑造的影响。这将促成发达自由民主国家的传统做法、中国模式和后殖民国家新兴发展模式之间的对话，这些国家正在国际论坛上发出自己的声音。联合国和世界贸易组织已经开展了这种对话。