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| Pix Credit HERE |
It has been a while since I turned my attention to Havana Syndrome. See essays here: Cuba Sonic Weapons Affair (41). Early on I predicted the way that this was going to run its course--because all parties have something to conceal, and because it impacts on weapons and strategic developments, as well as entanglements about which most of us (including me have no real idea), it would be necessary to find a way to distract attention, mitigate losses and move the discussion elsewhere.
What is clear, though, is that the public discourse around the Sonic Weapons attacks, and the private realities that appear to have gotten well ahead of the ability of the state security apparatus to manage its narrative to advantage, are neither aligned, nor do they seem to be heading anywhere in the direction of consensus within the governments of liberal democratic states. Elsewhere the narrative of simple--continue to expand, develop and deploy this technology, and deny its existence, to blame those who complain of the effects on its interest. This has been effective--especially for the battalions of those in the West desperately willing to believe. The rest appears to be gesture. What remains, and what one can continue to expect (while things are moving behind the scenes) is more confusion and a bit of managed suppression. (The Affair of the Sonic Weapons Attack: Lurching Forward in Congress But Going Nowhere 1 May 2021).
That continues to be the strategy, or so recent events suggest. Now, though, it is spiced with the theatrics of push back from some in the political classes, though, in the end, that will be well curated stage craft as well. The difficulty here (at least with respect to clarity) remains complicated by two foundational issues: (1) the wrong questions are likely being asked and also being precisely answered (a neat but ultimately annoying ploy); and (2) it may not be possible to formulate the right questions (which, in turn produce larger questions of accountability and integrity. These two issues fall well above the competence of most people. And thus we must be satisfied with the next act in the staging of the Havana Syndrome.
1. On 1 March 2023, the National Intelligence Council issued its Report: Updated Assessment of Anomalous Health Incidents. The unclassified report by the Intelligence Community can be found here.
Seven intelligence agencies participated in the review, with most concluding it was “very unlikely” that a foreign adversary was responsible. Officials told the Washington Post they did not believe the syndrome was intentionally caused through a directed energy weapon or as a byproduct of some other activity like electronic surveillance. (‘Something Happened Here’: Rubio Skeptical of Intel Absolving Foreign Adversaries of ‘Havana Syndrome’ Allegations)
The Report is a pretty object. It was deliberately crafted to be pretty--its visual semiotics are meant to convey the weightiness of the issue and the extent to which it was taken seriously by a community that was then reluctantly forced to react the greater part of its efforts. That is, it is an object that is more significant for the artistry of the elaborate and gaudy redactions, than it is for whatever text managed to reveal as it was permitted to seep out from between those madcap obliterations. Compare the State Department Report of 2020 (The
Affair of the Sonic Weapons Attack: Digesting the Long (Long) Awaited
and Ably Curated State Department Report: "An Assessment of Illness in
U.S. Government Emloyees and Their Families at Overseas Embassies"). Nit that this is bad. . . . or good. It is theater designed visually to convey meaning beyond text--earnestness, the seriousness of the effort, trustworthiness, thoroughness, etc. The visual signalling here takes center sage.
2. The reaction of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence was not entirely supportive (Himes and Turner Respond to “Havana Syndrome” Report by Intelligence Community). Its carefully crafted and deliberately enigmatic statement included the following:
As the Committee further reviews the intelligence community’s work, we remain committed to four core principles.“First, there can be no backsliding in the care and support we provide to our workforce. Congress enacted the HAVANA Act to expand benefits for those who have experienced AHIs, and we are closely monitoring that process to ensure it proceeds in accordance with the intent of the law.
“Second, there should be no change to processes established within the IC, the State Department, the Department of Defense, and elsewhere in the federal government to intake AHI reports, conduct the appropriate follow-on investigations, and direct individuals to care and support. Those who have come forward—as they were asked to do—should be treated with respect and they should be heard.
“Third, the investigation of AHIs has led to significant new focus in understanding the potential dangers and evolving challenges faced by the men and women of the Intelligence Community, the Department of Defense, and other agencies. That work should continue, recognizing that these challenges will endure.
“Finally, the Committee expects Intelligence Community leadership to continue to assess the causes of these incidents, collect reports, and to modify its conclusions as appropriate on the basis of any new evidence or analysis.”
3. Marco Rubio (R Fla) remains skeptical and will project that skepticism through the oversight capacity of the Senate. A relevant part of the Statement he released noted:
- "As I have said before, something happened here and just because you don’t have all the answers, doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. I will not accept that all these reported cases were just coincidences and I will continue to work on this issue until we receive real explanations.
- "The Senate Intelligence Committee will continue our ongoing independent review on AHIs and take steps to ensure that those officers affected by AHIs are receiving immediate and comprehensive care as required by law.”
4. "Drs Denise Baken and James Giordano discuss the scientific, technological, patient-centered and military implications and issues of the recently released Intelligence report on Havana Syndrome. Dr. Giordano, who served as a consulting forensic neuroscientist on the investigation of the original patients working at the US Embassy in Havana, discusses the questions raised by the report, in light of the investigations and analyses conducted to date." (Havana Syndrome: Bouncing the Reality Check? (Institute for Biodefense Research)).
The Updated Assessment of Anomalous Health Incidents follows below.
Drs Denise Baken and James Giordano discuss the scientific, technological, patient-centered and military implications and issues of the recently released Intelligence report on Havana Syndrome. Dr. Giordano, who served as a consulting forensic neuroscientist on the investigation of the original patients working at the US Embassy in Havana, discusses the questions raised by the report, in light of the investigations and analyses conducted to date.
Transcript
00;00;06;27 – 00;00;57;04
Dr. Baken
And good morning. I’m
Denise Bacon of president and founder of the Institute for Biodefense
Research. And welcome back to Clear and present our periodic podcast,
highlighting biosafety national security issues. I know you are all used
to hearing the lilting tones of our executive director, Dr. James
Giordano, leading the discussions. But today, we’re turning the tables
on Jake to talk about a hot topic that has been in the headlines for the
last few days, the Havana syndrome.
00;00;57;23 – 00;01;28;26
Dr. Baken
As many of you know, a
report was recently released with an assessment by our U.S. intelligence
agencies who determined that a foreign adversary is very unlikely to be
responsible for the mysterious ailment known as Havana Syndrome. Now,
Havana syndrome has been reported by as a condition suffered by dozens
of American spies and diplomats, and they’ve experienced it across
various missions around the world.
00;01;30;00 – 00;02;06;21
Dr. Baken
Now, it’s called Havana
syndrome because the first reports were from personnel assigned to the
Havana mission. And the report itself from our intelligence agencies has
caused an uproar, not as much, because what it did say, but more for
what it did not. As most of you may not know. RG served as consulting
conference neuroscientist on the investigation and analysis of the
original patients who were working at the US Embassy in Havana and they
were diagnosed with HIV.
00;02;07;02 – 00;02;29;06
Dr. Baken
And he is uniquely
qualified to answer a lot of our questions sooji so that we can get a
lay of the land and put some foundation to this. While most of us know
you for your neuroscience expertise, can you give us a quick synopsis of
your experience with the condition that’s known now as Havana syndrome?
Sure. Thanks very much, Denise.
00;02;29;06 – 00;02;58;29
Dr. Giordano
And it’s it’s a pleasure
to be on this side of the microphone, so to speak. I was called in in
late 2016 to begin a series of investigative analyzes in 2017 over a 12
month period based upon these individuals who are suffering from these
subjective symptoms and these objectively diagnosed and clinically
classified signs that were essentially neurologic features with very
strong motor component, cognitive component and vestibular balance
component.
00;02;59;23 – 00;03;28;05
Dr. Giordano
The patients had been
evaluated in Florida. The attending physician was Dr. Michael Hoffer,
and then the patients were subsequently reevaluated in Pennsylvania. The
nature of these reports was such that not only were the patient’s
subjective features taken into accord, but also very, very accurate in
highly granular clinical evaluations of a variety of neurological, motor
and cognitive functions and capabilities.
00;03;28;14 – 00;03;48;15
Dr. Giordano
And these were then
related to the patient’s metadata. I mean, not only those data about
what happened to them in Havana and what they were reporting, but also
longitudinal data about their medical histories, about their personal
histories as well as a host of data that were reflective of the nature
and condition of where they were living. They were living in private
domiciles.
00;03;48;15 – 00;04;14;03
Dr. Giordano
The circumstantial data
that revealed what the settings environments were during which these
things occurred to them. So when I was brought on, when I was tasked
with doing is a process known as a productive forensics. So very simply
put, you know, we didn’t have a proverbial smoking gun. We didn’t have
an entrance wound, so to speak. We didn’t have an exit wound, so to
speak.
00;04;14;10 – 00;04;34;24
Dr. Giordano
But we did have a lot of
things in between. And there was mounting evidence based upon the
available data. And Italy accumulated data that something had happened
to these individuals, something physical had happened to these
individuals. What was important to understand is the nature of that
process was just as valuable of ruling certain things in as it was
ruling things out.
00;04;35;09 – 00;05;03;08
Dr. Giordano
And the nature of the
process was to try to get some speculative understanding based upon
metadata, and not only those biomedical data and sociological data that
had to do with the patients themselves, but the architectural data, the
geographical data, the circumstantial settings data. It had to do with
the ecology and environment of of which these patients were then
subjected to whatever this was, so as to be able to create a more
accurate picture, or at least a speculative picture.
00;05;03;23 – 00;05;40;04
Dr. Giordano
And from that, to
determine a set of possibilities. In other words, what things could
possibly do this, and then correlating those possibilities with the
objective findings to then rule those possibilities down into
probabilities. So now what you’re doing is you’re ruling things in and
then you’re sorting things out. You’re ruling things out based upon
correlative alignment. And in so doing, what was determined is that a
number of factors, such as environmental or ecological factors, could
certainly possibly produce these types of effects exposure to a host of
industrial chemicals, pesticides, etc..
00;05;40;04 – 00;06;01;09
Dr. Giordano
But it certainly did not
fit the pattern on three major records. First, that would have been a
far more widespread pattern, even if these individuals, for example, had
particular susceptibility, as you would see some evidence of those
susceptibility, you could then match their susceptibility to the effect
of exposure to a known environmental agent. But there was no
environmental agent found, number one.
00;06;01;20 – 00;06;23;15
Dr. Giordano
Number two, there was no
traces of environmental agents or custodial or providential history of
use of such an agent. And the doses at which those agents would have
been necessitated for exposure would have also left some trace, a
biological trace that would have been evident in those samples that were
taken from these individuals. Moreover, the pattern of effect would
have been broader.
00;06;23;15 – 00;06;48;06
Dr. Giordano
It would not have been
just these particular individuals, but anyone who was proverbially,
quote, downrange, if you will, from exposure. Next possibility, might it
have been some drug? Might these individuals have commonly taken some
drug, might they been exposed to something, perhaps either a chemical or
a drug, even a chemical in a foodstuff or a microbe perhaps. Here, once
again, examining patterns.
00;06;48;11 – 00;07;09;03
Dr. Giordano
The patterns were not
aligned. They were inconsistent. We would have seen a very, very
different pattern of effect if there were drugs. And there are certainly
a number of drugs that could have produced these effects at least
acutely. But the doses necessary for those drugs would have been much
higher, which would have then evidenced recovery from these individual
systems and then also a whole host of other effects in these individuals
that were not seen.
00;07;09;04 – 00;07;29;11
Dr. Giordano
So in other words, the
side effect or major effect profile of exposure to such drugs and or
chemicals and or microbes and toxins would have been quite different,
requiring much higher exposures, both with regard to dose and rate. And
even if these individuals were solely the recipients of these things,
you would see a very different pattern of effect.
00;07;29;26 – 00;07;53;27
Dr. Giordano
And again, the
likelihood would be that if these types of things represented an
accidental exposure, the pattern of effect would have been far broader
and far more universal and generalized. And not just with these specific
individuals, particularly at that point, we thought, well, what else
could do this? Well, you know, the thing that you do concern yourself
with is might this be something psychological?
00;07;53;27 – 00;08;42;00
Dr. Giordano
I mean, we do understand
that the nature of any individual involvement with any circumstances,
they have a biology, they’re involved in some sociological environment
and they respond to those environments and they effect those
environments psychologically. Is it possible that there was some
psychogenic effect here? In other words, we’ve seen this before,
sometimes referred to as Ivan’s. It sure the Moscow I stresses on the
job concern the worried well thinking well okay I’m perhaps in an area
of relatively high threat high risk and as a consequence they begin to
develop would essentially be was called nervous outflow signs and
symptoms and or a frank functional neurological disorder Here, too
didn’t meet the pattern.
00;08;42;04 – 00;09;05;18
Dr. Giordano
There are specific
patterns that we tend to find in psychogenic associate genic illness,
most notably based upon communication. And that was conspicuously absent
for these individuals. They did not talk among themselves about these
escalating symptoms and signs that they were experiencing, but only upon
presenting for medical aid was it then found out you got a bunch of
individuals who have this point number one.
00;09;05;18 – 00;09;47;12
Dr. Giordano
Point number two, the
actual expression of functional neurological disorders can be
exceedingly complex. But again, we would not have seen the level of
granular clarity in these very reproducible clinical findings from a
number of different organic systems, neurological systems, vestibular
systems, vascular systems, cognitive systems in effects that we saw in
those patients. And again, I’m limiting this discussion to those
approximately two dozen individuals from Havana because the distinction
of those patients is critical to both the overall discourse and
particularly any discourse or discussion of the recent intelligence
report.
00;09;48;06 – 00;10;30;28
Dr. Giordano
So what we found was
with those patients that something had happened to them, something that
was evident in their clinical findings, objective clinical findings at a
very high level of stringency, sophistication and granularity. In some
cases, the individuals were evidencing what looked to be some form of
head injury, a mild to moderate traumatic head injury, which is what
gave the syndrome one of its original monikers, which was the Immaculate
concussion, because it seemed as if these individuals once again had
some expression of head injury, not only based upon their neurocognitive
features in terms of evaluations of pencil and paper tests and various
motor and vestibular and balance tests, but also on certain types of
neuro
00;10;30;28 – 00;10;54;19
Dr. Giordano
imaging. Now, a caveat
here, a real important caveat. Neuro imaging, at that level, it was what
we’re doing. That type of structural neuro imaging is very, very
difficult to ascertain what represents a prior insult to injury, what
may represent an artifact or what represents the real downrange result
of something that was incurred to really be able to discern those
things.
00;10;54;19 – 00;11;17;27
Dr. Giordano
But you need to do is to
essentially biopsy the brain tissue. You would need to look at that on a
sort of a gross cellular level and then on an individual cellular level
to determine whether these things were seen on the structural neuro
imaging at a particular level of fidelity actually represent incurred
initial injury or a short term injury result.
00;11;18;10 – 00;11;39;19
Dr. Giordano
But, you know, I got to
say a bit of brain scientists for four decades, and we’re not at the
point of taking people’s brains out of their head to assess the tissue
and then putting it back in. And although it is not impossible to biopsy
or do tissue and cellular analysis of brain tissue, it is highly
invasive and one doesn’t do that under these types of purely speculative
conditions.
00;11;39;19 – 00;12;00;22
Dr. Giordano
So one of the critiques
that came up earlier, it was like, look, you really don’t have any
cellular findings at the exact cellular or brain systemic level to be
able to indicate that this is a quid pro quo, that there’s causality.
No, we didn’t. And we don’t. But still much of brain science is
correlational anyway, and we put all these things together.
00;12;00;22 – 00;12;26;17
Dr. Giordano
It was indicative of a
pattern that would suggest that these individuals received some form of
biological insult without pointing fingers as to who or what and without
necessarily saying this is exactly what did it. But we did do we were
able to do is rule certain things out based upon pattern, based upon
profile, based upon data. And what was ruled out were environmental
conditions.
00;12;26;25 – 00;12;47;02
Dr. Giordano
What was ruled out were
exposure to chemicals, toxins and various drugs. What was ruled out was
psychogenic and social genic and functional neurological disorder. And
for God’s sakes, it wasn’t crickets. Now, let’s break break on this for a
second, because I think this is going to be really important. Are there
crickets in Havana? Of course there are crickets in Havana.
00;12;47;27 – 00;13;09;06
Dr. Giordano
I live in northern
Virginia. Are there crickets in Northern Virginia? Yes, there are other
plenty of things that make the sound that mimic or are almost identical
to the sound of crickets. Yes, I can tell you, in the middle of the
night, when my dog is dreaming, he’ll make little chirping noises.
Sounds just like cricket. One thing is not the other.
00;13;09;24 – 00;13;36;13
Dr. Giordano
Furthermore, that these
individuals heard something that they describe as cricket like, and that
there were recordings of crickets that were similar to or in some cases
almost identical to what these individuals heard is what’s known as a
logical fallacy. What you’re basically doing is you’re engaging the post
hoc fallacy. In other words, because it happened after, therefore, it’s
because we wouldn’t doubt that these individuals heard these types of
noises.
00;13;37;06 – 00;14;04;23
Dr. Giordano
But to say it was
crickets that did it and that these individuals conflated crickets with
this sort of extrapolate the fantasy that something was happening to
them simply did not fit the pattern. So what were we left with? But we
were left with is that these individuals are most likely exposed to some
form of energy. The idea there was was a direct a ball energy perhaps.
00;14;04;24 – 00;14;27;03
Dr. Giordano
Was it energy that may
have been used for some form of surveillance operation that may have had
an artifact, perhaps might have been some combination of both? Perhaps
Might it have been something that these individuals were using on the
job that they were using that had an artifact that expose them to these
types of things? And as a consequence, here, we’re seeing these
burdensome, if not problematic effects?
00;14;27;03 – 00;15;08;26
Dr. Giordano
Yes, perhaps.
Absolutely. There was no finger pointing at that time. It was simply a
question of what types of things could do this. And at that time we
yielded was essentially two major directions of viable energies. First
was some form of sonic energy, primarily in the ultrasonic range. And
the reason we were very confident of that is there are abundant
laboratory and also to some extent human evidences and experiments and
studies that have demonstrated the effects of various forms of
detectable acoustic and ultrasonic energies on a variety of tissues and
substances inclusive of those things that are either what we call human
phantoms or actual human beings, number one.
00;15;08;27 – 00;15;37;02
Dr. Giordano
Number two, these
devices were certainly available. The research, development, testing,
evaluation and use and practice of such devices was a given in 2016. The
patents for such devices range all acoustic and ultrasonic devices are
available here in the United States. Originally filed in 2004 2005 as a
reciprocal engagement between the United States Navy at the Naval
Postgraduate School and Commercial Enterprises.
00;15;37;09 – 00;16;09;25
Dr. Giordano
And we know that these
types of devices and the technologies were contributory to their
technological readiness level were also ongoing for a variety of
programs. And our international peer competitors, Trans-Pacific League,
as well as Transatlantic, and that similar devices, although far less
potent devices, are also available direct to consumer to repel various
forms of vermin and in some cases are actually advertised as being able
to repel human house intruders because of the effects they elicit.
00;16;10;29 – 00;16;38;09
Dr. Giordano
That said, clearly one
possibility we entertained was might it have been that these types of
devices, these anti vermin devices that utilized some form of range able
acoustics and ultrasonics were installed so as to keep these
individuals apartments, their private domiciles free of pests, free of
vermin, free of bugs, free of rats, mice or weasels? Yeah, that’s
absolutely true.
00;16;38;16 – 00;16;59;24
Dr. Giordano
However, one of the
things we looked for is was there a custodial record? Were they
purchased? Were they installed? Whether was there any exhalation, were
they removed? And the other issue there is that if these individuals
were in fact exposed to such devices, those devices would have had to
have been within a particular range of those individuals and that would
have been notable.
00;17;00;05 – 00;17;24;26
Dr. Giordano
And that was not the
case. I mean, I think another very important thing to bring to light
here is that in our discussions with our Cuban colleagues, they threw
their hands up and said, look, we had no idea what’s going on. And I’d
be very honest with you. I, for one, believed them then and believe them
now. I do not think that this represented any organized approach by our
Cuban colleagues to have any form of disruptive effect on these
individuals or others.
00;17;25;13 – 00;17;52;03
Dr. Giordano
So they were a bit as
blindsided as we were. So is it possible that these individuals got
downrange of some form of direct able acoustic ultrasonic device that
may have either been used for surveillance or may have been used for
disruptive purposes? Again, not making any form of directional
attribution as who was using it, and that these effects may have been
due to exposure to these types of energies.
00;17;52;16 – 00;18;24;23
Dr. Giordano
Yes, yes, there is a
probability. But wait, there’s there’s there’s more, there’s more. You
can see there’s more if you’re subsequently to the initial
investigations. I served as a senior research fellow for the Donavan
Group, U.S. Special Operations Command, specifically looking at emerging
technologies and their viable consideration of risks and threats to
public safety, national security. And realistically, that was sort of a
very large kind of banner for delving more deeply into this thing that
was being called Havana syndrome.
00;18;26;02 – 00;18;59;19
Dr. Giordano
And what became apparent
is that although we had initially considered the possibility of other
forms of energy along the electromagnetic spectrum, such as microwaves,
the first blush, if you will, of some of the technology suggested that
although there are some experimental directions that were able to
develop microwave technology that would be scalable, that would have
lesser requirements for such an overwhelming power base, and that would
therefore affect the scalability and that would have a thermal or non
thermal signature, which again would be highly detectable.
00;18;59;19 – 00;19;30;08
Dr. Giordano
You feel the heat are
subsequent analysis recognized that the technological readiness level of
very, very rapidly pulsed microwaves that utilize some form of laser
pulsing to be able to reduce the overall time signature necessary to be
able to produce these types of microwave effects without a thermal
artifact was a clear and present viability. Given the technological and
scientific readiness levels number one here in the United States.
00;19;31;03 – 00;20;08;28
Dr. Giordano
Number two,
multinational. We inclusive of our trans Atlantic and trans peer
competitors who are using these types of direct microwaves for various
forms of industrial and occupational safety and health testing to assess
the viability or vulnerability of a variety of different substances,
including organic tissue. So what was determined and what was determined
irrefutably during the period of time from 2017 to 2019 is that, number
one, the science and technology exists to be able to develop these
types of engineered devices.
00;20;09;16 – 00;20;39;11
Dr. Giordano
Number two, these types
of engineered devices do in fact exist. And number three, the existence
of these devices, multinational nationally renders them scalable field
ble and operational sizable in a variety of ways, inclusive of those
ways that could be used as mechanisms of potential surveillance and or
disruption and could be used in those ways that would be at least
somewhat clandestine, if not more overtly covert, more explicitly
covert.
00;20;39;29 – 00;21;13;08
Dr. Giordano
So the body of evidence
coming from the scientific and technological side was able to provide
supportive and correlative corroboration that what had happened to those
individuals in Havana could and likely probably did occur as a
consequence of some exposure to some form of energy. Again, a direct
able form of energy and energy that may have been an artifact of some
other technology used for a variety of purposes, from surveillance to
disruption to anything in between.
00;21;13;09 – 00;21;50;13
Dr. Giordano
Sure. No one at that
time, and certainly no one working with my group overtly came out and
number one, described what would be the smoking gun, but only the types
of things that could be developed and then provided examples of same. In
other words, it wasn’t as if we came up with the actual device that was
used. And that’s an important issue because having the exact device
that was used in demonstrating who has proprietary value and or who has
provenance and custodianship of that device or had custodianship of that
device would have been very, very important to any attempt at
attribution.
00;21;50;26 – 00;22;11;13
Dr. Giordano
Here is not a smoking
gun. Here is the smoking gun or guns. And oh, by the way, here are the
prints on the gun and here’s who made the gun. And this is when the gun,
so to speak, was used and fired based upon ballistics report, we didn’t
have that. But there’s one thing to say. We didn’t have the smoking
gun.
00;22;11;27 – 00;22;49;06
Dr. Giordano
It’s quite another to
say that guns do not exist yet and that the technological readiness of
firearms does not allow the types of devices that could, in fact, be
used in these ways. Those are two very different things. So we came out
of this with a relatively strong probabilistic inference that these
individuals actually incurred some physical insult and that the physical
insult was most probably the result of exposure to some form of energy,
either factual or directly, either inadvertently or purposefully.
00;22;50;08 – 00;23;20;13
Dr. Giordano
So that all of that
leads me to ask a question. I have several, but this one in particular,
given what you’ve said, if we are to truly, objectively and again, I
mean the term logical, logically look at this. If there was an ideal
approach, what do you think it would be to examine, to truly to examine,
to examine the phenomenon or to examine the report?
00;23;20;17 – 00;23;55;13
Dr. Giordano
Now, the report. Let’s
do it from the report I’m going to do. I want to stick with the
phenomenon itself first. You know, first, I think it’s very, very
important to be non categorical. Exactly right. The individuals in
Havana represented one particular group, one cohort. Exactly. And there
were several. And that to me, given that there were missions across the
world, how what would you if you were king for a day, how would you see
examining the syndrome?
00;23;56;06 – 00;24;23;08
Dr. Giordano
You know, I would I
would use the cases in Havana as prototypical. I would use the cases in
Havana as, look, we have a high level of confidence that something
happened to these individuals. This represents the most probability, the
most probable etiologic or inductive cause. And let’s examine all the
signs and symptoms. All of the clinical features and manifestations of
would not only happen to those individuals, would continue to happen to
them, and how they respond to treatment.
00;24;23;08 – 00;25;11;25
Dr. Giordano
In other words, use
those individuals as prototypical match any other reported cases to
those individuals to be able to assess with particularity and
specificity those areas of similarity and those areas of distinction so
as to be able to develop, if you will, categorical or characteristic
clades groups, identification, features and patterns. Now, what is
important to understand that there have been a number of reported cases
subsequent to those in Havana, and some of those have occurred with
individuals who are working in very, very similar job spaces, job types
and job folks on there are at this point a number, and we’ll leave that
number a somewhat ambiguous based upon what represents confidential but
unclassified information.
00;25;11;25 – 00;25;54;08
Dr. Giordano
The number of
individuals who remain in a verification and validation, if you will,
pipeline, in other words, going through further examinations and
analysis to determine how their signs and symptoms stack up against
those individuals in Havana. Now, what’s important there is your your
sort of invocation, if I could be king for a day, it’s important to keep
the investigation open, but it’s also important to maintain that those
individuals in Havana represent something prototypical certainly
something prototypical to dismiss what happened to those individuals in
Havana and to do so categorically is essentially to throw diffusing
water over what has now become fairly well dried ink.
00;25;54;28 – 00;26;19;29
Dr. Giordano
So now what’s happening
is you’re blurring the boundaries that makes any kind of further
investigation, further identification of what really is there from what
really is not there, at very least difficult, if not in some cases
impossible. An important note, there have been literally over 1000
reports from individuals who believe truly and honestly believe that
they may have been subjected to this type of thing.
00;26;20;29 – 00;26;50;00
Dr. Giordano
The overwhelming
majority of those reports and I mean 99% of those reports represent
something quite different. They represent individuals who are perhaps
the worried well, I mean, individuals who are actually working in these
types of jobs cases and details who may be very worried that, hey, you
know, I had certain signs and symptoms. Was I exposed or they may think I
might be vulnerable to exposure.
00;26;51;02 – 00;27;18;11
Dr. Giordano
I think the second group
of individuals are those that may have some pre or coexisting medical
condition inclusive perhaps of a psychological condition. And these can
range from inner ear inflammation. There’s a chronic disorder referred
to as miner’s disease to other problems of the vestibular system, to
neurological issues, to rheumatologic and immunological disorders that
cause all kinds of problems with neuro motor control, neurocognitive
control, etc..
00;27;19;03 – 00;28;00;23
Dr. Giordano
And then I think we have
to appreciate the the issue of what’s sometimes referred to very
politically correctly as psychological or psychiatric overlay or
underlay. In other words, there are individuals who have particular
psychological dispositions that at very, very least might render them
somewhat hypochondriacal and at very worst may render them somewhat
paranoid and somewhat illusory with regard to delusions of persecution,
delusions of illness, etc., irrespective of what those thousand plus
individuals have, they should be treated for what they have.
00;28;01;02 – 00;28;43;09
Dr. Giordano
They should not be
dismissed, but they should be treated for what they have, which means a
diagnosis and accurate assessment is critical. The other thing that is
very important is if in fact we are of the recognition and
acknowledgment, as we should be, that these devices and the technologies
to engineer these devices is, quote, out there, wherever out there may
be out there in our backyard by virtue of something the United States
has in its inventory, them out there in terms of the possibility of
parts of that armamentarium being usurped, bastardized, exploited by
state or non-state actors working within hours of rending and or the
possibility of similar technologies being exercised and developed
elsewhere.
00;28;43;09 – 00;29;25;23
Dr. Giordano
I mean, let’s face it,
if we can do it, they, whoever they are, can do it as well. Is to sort
of put our heads in the sand and deny the reality of these things that
exist as potential burdens, risks or threats to public safety, national
stability, or very, very least, the health and well-being of those
individuals we put in harm’s way, in those diplomatic and intelligence
operations and it also, to some extent, manifest some impediment of
ongoing efforts that are the direct result of recent Biden
administration allocations and appropriations to be able to develop
those methods, techniques and tools for detection, deterrence,
mitigation and prevention.
00;29;25;27 – 00;29;54;11
Dr. Giordano
And in that way, I think
what it does is, is it undermines the United States and its allies
preparedness and readiness for the reality of these types of
technologies and their potential weaponization. Mm hmm. Absolutely. No, I
would agree. So where do you see this going next? Well. Well, you know,
I think so. In conclusion, if you will, if someone said I put a bow on
it.
00;29;54;16 – 00;30;20;11
Dr. Giordano
What? What? What’s up
with the report? I think the report failed on three very major ways. And
by putting those major ways together, certainly incurred what I’ll call
a fourth or fifth manifest effect downstream. I think that the report
explicitly failed to recognize the existing scientific and technological
availability and readiness of these devices capable of doing these
types of energies.
00;30;20;11 – 00;30;47;08
Dr. Giordano
I mean, that failure
disregards not only United States patents, technical reports and
publications that are in the peer reviewed literature that that are
available, but also denies the United States intelligence acumen to date
that has been able to assess the status and progress of our near-peer
competitors efforts in these spaces. And that to me, that that’s
anathema to that level of transparency.
00;30;47;16 – 00;31;05;18
Dr. Giordano
It’s not a question of
saying, well, now wait a minute, you know, if we say we know they have
that, therefore we’re going to do brinksmanship. No, no, no. I mean,
let’s face it, in one case, if looking at our Trans-Pacific peer
competitor, they are very, very explicit in the nature of those
technologies. And as they’re being used for industrial occupational
safety and health testing.
00;31;05;26 – 00;31;47;20
Dr. Giordano
So it’s not a question
of we’re throwing out some cryptic card and as a result, we’re sort of
laying our hand on the table, which would then defuze or deflate our
efforts at detection and deterrence. Not at all. The second and of
course, this strikes a little bit closer to home too, to what it is that
I do and many of my colleagues do, is that the report blatantly
disregards the accumulated scientific and forensic analysis and evidence
of possible, if not probable, cause, specifically specifically for
those individuals who are working in Havana to categorically group those
individuals in Havana with the rest of these reports, and perhaps to
then infer or imply or even explicate
00;31;47;20 – 00;32;16;25
Dr. Giordano
that the individuals on
the verification pipeline are being verified not to have something like
Havana because there was nothing there happening in Havana is a
travesty. And I think that’s important. And the other thing is that, I
mean, we ruled out empirically ruled out other factors such as
environmental variables, gross exposure to industrial or ecological
chemicals or toxins, and these types of prior coexisting medical
conditions, inclusive of psychological things that could be
contributory, if not directly producing these effect.
00;32;17;16 – 00;32;48;09
Dr. Baken
Again, the third and this
is important, and I want to reiterate it, is that the report
categorically aggregates all reported cases. Does not distinguish what
happened in Havana from what happened subsequently, nor does it make
particular inference or direct explication that those subsequent cases
could very well be, if not, or most likely are psychogenic and socio
genic effects, which incidentally are also of interest and should be of
concern to public health and national security.
00;32;48;20 – 00;33;17;08
Dr. Giordano
Because Dennis, you know
as well as I the propagated misinformation particularly infiltrated
misinformation corrupted in this information is often used as one of the
psychological elements as a disruptive effect to be able to gauge
ripple effects within a population and make accurate determination of if
something happened or something not happened far more difficult. It’s
sometimes referred to as the fog of war, but let’s not call this war.
00;33;17;08 – 00;33;39;11
Dr. Giordano
It’s certainly the fog
of engagement, particularly if those engagements wish to remain on the
non-kinetic side without escalation to the kinetic zone. And that’s
important. So I think if we put the pieces together to answer your
question, what’s next? I think it becomes important to sort of look at
the report in some way by doing those three things.
00;33;39;26 – 00;34;12;02
Dr. Giordano
Failure to recognize and
acknowledge existing scientific logic of the devices, ignoring and
disregarding the medical evidence about the cases in Havana. And number
three, categorically aggregating all of these reports and not
distinguishing those cases in Havana and those in the verification
pipeline as being something quite different from the majority of
reported cases. The report dismisses analysis of both governmental and
non-governmental experts and subject matter experts who would
constituent to the relevant aspects of these types of anomalous health
incidences.
00;34;12;11 – 00;34;42;13
Dr. Giordano
And in that way, I think
is inconsistent with the scientific, technological and medical evidence
that has been gathered and assimilated to date. And in that way, it’s
also relatively antithetical to the Department of Defense and Department
of State perspectives, as well as the executive officer’s posture
coming literally from President Biden. That’s right. That’s Paris. The
secretary absolute take away from these work.
00;34;42;17 – 00;35;06;26
Dr. Giordano
Correct? Mm hmm. But I
think and I want to drill this one home because I think this is crucial
over and above those factors that I find to be appropriate, problematic,
to be sure. Curious at very, very least and ethically appropriate for
those reasons. What I find really ethically problematic is that it
disrespects the patients who were affected by these anomalous health
incidences in Havana.
00;35;06;26 – 00;35;38;10
Dr. Giordano
And those were verified.
Yes. As well as just respecting the providers who dedicated their
professional expertise, skill and time to evaluating these patients and
treating and caring for them here, making particular reference not only
to these individuals, private physicians, but certainly the referral
chain and the care chain, inclusive of the very, very strong and solid
efforts of my colleagues at Walter Reed who’ve dedicated time, energy,
effort and expense to treating these patients.
00;35;38;10 – 00;35;58;08
Dr. Giordano
Right. All right. So,
you know, I think the syndrome does not go away. The individuals are
still there. The care is needed. And for me, I think there’s a
significant concern for future research on it. I agree. And that, to me
is is and, you know, for me, I always try to figure out what does that
mean to everybody?
00;35;58;16 – 00;36;12;17
Dr. Giordano
To everybody. It could
mean that continued research on, this evidence, solid peer reviewed
research, may be in danger just because there would be a hesitance.
00;36;15;20 – 00;36;41;09
Dr. Giordano
No doubt. I mean, I
think that in many, many ways the report raises far more and I think
multidimensional, only serious questions than it answers. And as you
said in so doing, may induce certain tripping hazards, roadblocks to the
commitment of the United States efforts. I mean, as established
directly by the Biden administration to recognize quantifying.
Absolutely. Yes.
00;36;41;10 – 00;37;02;27
Dr. Giordano
For not only what
happened in Havana, saying, okay, perhaps this was a probe event which
we need to sort of explore more fully. But what has been brought to
light is the technological readiness level of these forms of science and
engineering that can be weaponized. It’s there really to acknowledge
that in many ways is sort of putting our heads in the proverbial sand or
tucking them up very deeply into other orifice.
00;37;03;09 – 00;37;30;18
And that’s just to me, that’s inexcusable. Absolutely. Oh, well, my friend, I thank you so very much as always. It’s engaging, talking with you. And you and I have discussed this offline and I appreciate you taking the time because I know your schedule has been extremely busy. Taking the time, though, to sit with us for a few minutes to just talk about it and give it an everyday ness.
00;37;30;18 – 00;38;19;02
So that in in language that people can understand and bring home some of the importance that’s out there. So thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Subscribe to your favorite podcast channel to join us next time for another episode of Clear and Present.
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