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Lately Margaret Brennan, perhaps despite herself and the apparatus within which she is embedded, has produced some very interesting exchanges in the form of interviews, or what passes for interviews these days on the old school television show, "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," a baby boomer legacy project that has been restyled to survive even as that demographic fades into history. See, for example, Transactional Empire; or the Problem of Language When Merchant-Types Try to Speak to Old Guard Public Official-Types: Reflections on the Transcript of Secretary of State Marco Rubio on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Jan. 4, 2026.
That show and its interview style remains critically important for illustrating both the merchant-type approach to analytics and action of the Trump Administration and some of its allies, as well as the difficulty for merchant-transactional-types to communicate with the old-guard inhabitants of the cognitive cages of reality shaping that marked the old era of vanguardist, institutional (nomenklatura) types--and vice versa. That challenge was brought out in the interview given by Secretary of State Rubio in ways that skewed, and by skewing exposed the position of the writers and perhaps the network (but that is such an ordinary occurrence that it hardly merits mention--except to the extent that it, too, exposes the conceptual rift that makes communication between ancien regime and revolutionary cognitive approaches so difficult)) and their conceptual and reality rationalizing presumptions and those of some of the people they interview.
This enlightening incomprehensibility was also very much evident in the most interesting interview by Margaret Brennan of Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Michael Leiter. It is particularly interesting for exposing the communicative and conceptual gulfs that exist among the traditional techno-institutionalist type mindset (Interviewer Brennan) discussing issues with a transactional/warrior type (Ambassador Leiter) around the driving influence of the transactional/merchant type (U.S. President Trump) with respect to the shaping, analysis, and future of the US/Israel military confrontation with the Government of Iran. The wrinkle here is the difference between a transactional-merchant and a transactional-warrior type. They appear to share much of the orienting premises especially with respect to the iterative, mimetic and transactional character of relations that are more focused on deal making rather than broader institutional arrangements about which, at the margins, both types are indifferent (except to the extent that it threatens the environment in which transactional relationships may be undertaken. But where the deal may be privileged among transactional-merchant types, to be enforced and realized through transactional win-win expectations, the transactional warrior type approaches the transactional space as the privileged concept, the protection (or in the case of Israel the construction) of which serves as a predicate for the deal making which is the forte and driving impulse of the transactional merchant. This is enforced and maintained through military action--backgrounded within the cognitive cages of the transactional merchant but foregrounded for the transactional warrior.
The transcript follows below. What stands out most, perhaps understandably, are the gaps in the understanding of critical terms and the expectations built around conflict that separates both the US transactionalist/merchant and techno-institutionalist from the transactional/warrior. In that respect the discussion about Lebanon and Hezbollah is particularly clarifying.
On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Michael Leiter
- Democratic Sen. Mark Warner of Virginia
- GOP Rep. Mike Turner of Ohio
- Kristalina Georgieva, managing director of the International Monetary Fund
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2026 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Vice President Vance returns to the U.S. empty-handed following talks with Iranian leaders. But President Trump now says he's ordered the Navy to blockade the Strait of Hormuz.
The 21 hours of negotiations ended early this morning in Pakistan. * * *
(Begin VT)
J.D. VANCE (Vice President of the United States): The bad news is that we have not reached the agreement. And I think that's bad news for Iran much more than it's bad news for the United States of America.(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Trump and Secretary of State Rubio got the news while they were out for a Saturday night at the UFC fights.
Earlier, Mr. Trump downplayed the significance of the talks.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): Whether we make a deal or not makes no difference to me. And the reason is because we have won.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: What's next in the now 44-day war that has sent gas prices soaring around the world? Will the fragile two-week cease-fire hold? And what exactly is President Trump's goal in the conflict?
We will hear from the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Leiter, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mark Warner, and Republican Congressman Mike Turner.
We will also take a closer look at the war's impact on the global economy with the head of the International Monetary Fund, Kristalina Georgieva.
And, finally, a bleak week winds up with a very happy ending.
It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
As we come on the air, President Trump is weighing in on the outcome of those talks in Pakistan, saying that – quote – "Most points were agreed to, but the only point that really mattered, nuclear, was not."
He also says the U.S. Navy will begin a blockade of the Strait of Hormuz and that any Iranian who fires at us or peaceful vessels will be – quote - - "blown to hell."
There's no word on what Mr. Trump is suggesting was agreed to at this point.
According to our new CBS poll, there is increasing concern about the president's handling of the war and its impact among Americans. Those factors and more add up to a new low in President Trump's overall job approval rating for his second term.
The inflation report out late last week did not help. It was the worst of Mr. Trump's second term, showing a monthly jump we hadn't seen in nearly four years.
We have got more on our poll later in the broadcast, but we begin with Saturday and Sunday's dramatic negotiations in Pakistan between the U.S. and Iran.
Our Imtiaz Tyab reports from Islamabad.
(Begin VT)
IMTIAZ TYAB (voice-over): There was a real sense of optimism as Vice President J.D. Vance arrived in Islamabad, along with special envoy Steve Witkoff and the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner.
Just hours earlier, the Iranian delegation had also arrived in the capital city led by the speaker of Parliament, Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf, and Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi. It was hosted by the Pakistanis, who helped broker the cease-fire so the talks could happen, the first high- level face-to-face meetings between top American and Iranian political leaders since the 1979 revolution.
And after 21 hours of marathon talks, including multiple calls to President Trump, Vice President Vance emerged at 6:00 a.m. local time.
J.D. VANCE (Vice President of the United States): We have made very clear what our red lines are, what things we're willing to accommodate them on and what things we're not willing to accommodate them on. And we have made that as clear as we possibly could, and they have chosen not to accept our terms.
IMTIAZ TYAB: According to Vance, the key sticking point was Iran's refusal to agree to never develop a nuclear weapon. Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman, Esmail Baghaei, said the U.S. made – quote – "excessive demands," but downplayed the apparent breakdown.
(ESMAIL BAGHAEI SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
IMTIAZ TYAB: "One should not have expected that we could reach an agreement in a single session," he said.
And while that may not have been the Iranian delegation's expectation to end the punishing six-week war, the U.S. delegation left the talks more definitively.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: We leave here with a very simple proposal, a method of understanding that is our final and best offer. We will see if the Iranians accept it.
IMTIAZ TYAB: Throwing into question whether the shaky cease-fire would hold, if further talks would be held, and whether U.S. forces would return to direct combat.
Mushahid Hussain Syed is a member of the Pakistani Senate.
Are the talks dead, and will we see the war restart?
MUSHAHID HUSSAIN SYED (Pakistani Senator): No, talks are not dead. There's a stalemate. But the fact is that top leadership met face to face. That's almost a miracle.
And Pakistan pulled it off. So, I think that says a lot. That shows that both sides are ready, able and willing to seek a deal.
(End VT)
IMTIAZ TYAB: And the Pakistani government has said it was – quote – "imperative" the U.S. and Iran uphold the cease-fire and that it would also try to host further talks in the coming days, Margaret, talks which could determine the fate of the Strait of Hormuz and a conflict which has seen global energy prices soar and thousands of people killed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's Imtiaz Tyab in Pakistan.
For more on the peace negotiations, we are joined now by Israel's ambassador to the United States, Dr. Michael Leiter.
Good morning. Welcome back to the program.
MICHAEL LEITER (Israeli Ambassador to the United States): Good morning, Margaret. Good to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Israel and the U.S. have been lockstep in this war to date. You heard the vice president sort of leave the door open to diplomacy, but President Trump also said this morning "The U.S. is locked and loaded for an appropriate moment."
Is it your understanding that Israel and the U.S. will hold fire until the end of this two-week cease-fire?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: We have to remember that the president has been relentless in pursuing an end to this crisis through talks. That's – the talks preceded the June war. Talks preceded Epic Fury. The talks are going on now.
And I think that, if we can conclude this crisis with Iran, with this regime, this tyrannical regime that's pursuing nuclear weapons without going back into kinetic activity, it would probably be best for everyone.
The president continues to pursue that. But, right now, they saw face to face – the vice president sat opposite this fellow Ghalibaf, who's directly responsible for the murder of his own people just in January, this past January, and just saw how obdurate and obstinate they are in pursuit of nuclear weapons.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you said the talks are still going on, are there – is there any level of U.S.-Iran contact at this point?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Well, you know, the president gave the issue two weeks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: And we're just into the end of the first week, so there is another week left for the potential for continued talks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: We – we know the Iranians. We know this regime. We don't think they're going anywhere, but it's important to give it a chance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Vance said "We need to see Iran give affirmative commitment to not seek a nuclear weapon or the tools that would enable them to quickly achieve a nuclear weapon."
Is your understanding that the U.S. position is zero enrichment? Or are they still leaving the door open that Iran could have a civil – civilian nuclear program for medical purposes?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Civilian nuclear program doesn't entail enrichment. There are 57 countries with a civilian nuclear program that don't have enrichment. They bring the material in.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But they want a little bit. You know that.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: No. No, if they have a little bit, then they can have a lot.
To move from 60 percent, which they had, to 90 percent, look, you don't build these production plants deep underground if you're doing it for medical purposes. You have nothing to hide. These people lie. We shouldn't be surprised when people who murder their own also lie.
This has been their pursuit. They've been chanting for 47 years, "Death to America," "Death to Israel." That's their goal.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Let's not be paternalistic about it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But we're negotiating with that same regime right now.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: We're trying at the same time to – we're negotiating them…
MARGARET BRENNAN: The very same people.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: We're negotiating them after eliminating their navy, after eliminating their air force, after degrading their leadership. Hopefully, they'll come to their knees and say, we're surrendering.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the president has said the war is won. Your prime minister said the work is not yet complete.
Specifically, what part of Iran still poses a military threat to Israel? Do you still consider it an existential threat?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Well, there are three things that we have to be concerned with from the beginning, number one, the pursuit of a nuclear weapon. If they go back to that pursuit that concerns us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They say they aren't…
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Number two, ballistic missiles. OK, these ballistic missiles – they promised, by the way, that they don't have a ballistic missile that could reach Europe. They lied. We saw that they do.
They will turn…
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're talking about the firing on Diego Garcia.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: The firing on Diego Garcia. They said it was limited to 2,000 kilometers. We see now they've got 4,000 kilometers. It's just a sprint to 8,000 kilometers and to hit Chicago or Tenafly, New Jersey.
So, that has to be dealt with…
MARGARET BRENNAN: U.S. intel says nine years.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: … and proxy. Well, our intel says less than nine years, OK?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: And our intel has been accurate on this from the very beginning, OK?
Now, it was clear. We said that they're in a sprint to achieve nuclear weapons. And Mr. Witkoff came back from the talks beforehand and said they came in, they walked into negotiations, said, we've got 60 percent ready for 11 bombs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Eleven bombs at 60 percent means that you got a week or two until you got 90 percent and weapon-grade.
And the last thing, Margaret, are the proxies, OK? We – this isn't over until there is a complete de-linkage between Iran and its proxies, which have spread death, mayhem and destruction around the Middle East.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to come back to that in regard to Hezbollah.
But just to finish what you're talking about with intelligence, there was this highly detailed "New York Times" report this past week. I know you read it, extraordinary journalism that detailed this February 11 meeting, where your prime minister pitched President Trump on bombing Iran.
It said the Israeli plan was to kill the Ayatollah. Done. Cripple Iran's ability to threaten its neighbors, spur a popular uprising in Iran, and then conduct regime change, leaving in place a secular leader.
Obviously, all those goals were not achieved. Can you declare an end to the war without achieving that checklist?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: First of all, all of those goals have not been achieved yet. This is a process. This isn't instant soup, number one.
Number two, I was in the room at that meeting. The journalists who wrote that article were not. And, apparently, they received the information second- third-hand. There's an awful lot in that article which simply isn't true, which is a narrative that's being created, interesting narrative, but not accurate.
So I would be very careful about quoting from that particular article.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, specifically, what – what did they get wrong? Because they say your intelligence services, the Mossad, argued the Iranian regime would be so weak it could not choke off the Strait of Hormuz. That was wrong. Iran would have minimal…
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: No, no, we didn't argue that. We argued the potential, that we've got to work towards that.
No – nothing was presented as a fact, that, if we do this, this will be the outcome. It's not science. Politics is not science. Military operations are not science. We presented the case that this is what we think should be done.
The president makes a decision. This whole thing about the prime minister coming in…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: … and dragging the president into this, it's all, you know, for publicity purposes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did Mossad believe that there would be protests that would overthrow the regime and that Kurdish fighters would enter through the north?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: The Mossad thought that, as we saw in January, hundreds of thousands and millions of people rise up, the potential for that happening again is even greater now.
And we still think it's very great. We still think we could – that could materialize over the next couple of months. But there's no guarantee.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Then why negotiate with the same regime that is suppressing those people?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Well, you can negotiate…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is Israel really supportive of this diplomacy?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: You can negotiate. We're supportive of the president and his efforts, OK?
We've been in lockstep from the beginning in the planning, in the implementation, and we're going to end this thing together as well. So we're completely supportive of the president's efforts, both diplomatically and militarily.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the proxies, "The Jerusalem Post" today is writing that Israel's war in Lebanon is the price to pay for Iran reopening Hormuz.
The Israeli offensive against Hezbollah – and, for our viewers, they are a political party in Lebanon and they also are Iran's strongest militia and proxy force. They've complicated things here. The Trump administration is holding talks Tuesday in Washington. You'll be at the table with the ambassador from Lebanon. Hezbollah is not part of these talks.
In that lead-up, is Israel going to pause, reduce the strikes on Lebanon?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: If I can, a point of correction. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization…
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: … which is also a political party. It's not a political party which also has a terrorist wing. They are a terrorist organization. They're a proxy of Iran…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: … which has an agenda of destroying the state of Israel.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: And they fire missiles into our towns and villages.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: And we have to respond.
Now, we want to negotiate with Lebanon. Lebanon and Israel can live in peace tomorrow. I believe – you know, we had this initial phone call on Friday. It was a conference call between myself…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You and the Lebanese ambassador.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: … Lebanese ambassador, the U.S. ambassador to Beirut, all moderated by the State Department official Mike Needham.
It was a great conversation. And the thing we all agreed upon, that, if there was – if we just put Hezbollah on the side, and just Israel and Lebanon negotiate peace…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: … two months, three months, we've got a complete peace agreement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But let me just follow up. You said Israel has to respond. That's different when it comes to responding to a strike from Hezbollah versus the kind of bombing that we saw this past week, particularly on Wednesday.
The airstrikes killed more than 350 people that day, a third of them women and children and the elderly, according to the Lebanese Health Ministry. The vice president said Israel had agreed to check itself with these strikes. And the president said he spoke with Bibi, your prime minister, and he said he's going to low-key it.
Can you explain what low-key bombing means? Is this a reduced cadence and volume of strikes from Wednesday? What exactly did the U.S. and Israel agree to?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Reduce cadence, upped cadence, operational issues aren't discussed on Sunday morning on television.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the president…
(LAUGHTER)
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Well, what we – we discussed is that we're going to be in tandem with the president's efforts in the Gulf, and we support the president's efforts.
Right now, we are pursuing those who are shooting missiles against our civilians, and the operation Wednesday was targeted against operation centers of Hezbollah. Now, what they do…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You dispute those Lebanese government figures of civilian deaths?
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: No, abs – oh, of course. It's like Hamas releasing figures from Gaza, their Health Ministry.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you're – you're negotiating with the Lebanese government.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: We – we – absolutely. Absolutely.
But the – sometimes, there's this attempt to paint us as, you know, going after civilians. We're going after, in a targeted fashion, the terrorist infrastructure. That's what we focus on.
Now, what they do Margaret, is they put their operation centers, their terrorist centers among civilians. Now, we tell them to get out. They don't always get out, but we do what we can. Hamas does this in Gaza by building their bases within civilian centers. Hezbollah does it.
And we saw the other day where Tehran sent their civilians out to the bridges and the – energy plants…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: … so they wouldn't be – this is a crime against humanity.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you have your own diplomacy on Tuesday, we will be watching for that and what happens. Thank you for your time this morning.
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL LEITER: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Senator Mark Warner. He's the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee. And he joins us from Charlottesville, Virginia.
Good morning to you, Senator.
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